I wish to share with you the insights of OMB reader Duchess on social egg freezing.
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Hello, OMB! I am a regular silent reader. But not anymore this time. I can’t keep my silence on this particular post about egg freezing. For the benefit of your readers who are humble practicing Catholics, or anyone taking bioethics seriously, I would like to share the following: egg freezing and sperm banking for future in-vitro-fertilization in order to bring about a human person, not as a fruit of, and outside the dignity of the conjugal act (sexual union of husband and wife) is immoral. I know many will hate me for saying this. But I understand, because moral truths are never easy to swallow in real life. Sliding down the slope of moral licentiousness is always easier (happier even for some). OMB always says “choose to be good” but I think it must be followed by a caveat: be brave and man enough to stay put in the moral high ground because being good though noble and holy and joyful ironically hurts. Being good entails sacrifice. Now, before I get carried away, what I want to say is that “human dignity is best respected when the beautiful sexual union of two people conceives a child. This does not happen when a human being is created in a laboratory.” As the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: 2377 “Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children. Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person.”
Thank you, and my sincere apologies if ever I inconvenienced anyone.
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Thank you Duchess. I appreciate and respect your views.
Regards,
Omb
Had my husband and I paid attention to egg freezing few years back, we would have done it. Concept of morality is subjective. I wonder which is better for humanity: an immoral offspring created in the natural union of men and women or a moral offspring formed
in test tubes and labs?
Had my husband known about egg freezing a while back, we would have done it. Of course, there’s nothing like conceiving the natural way but for those who are struggling, it is easier said than done. Concept of morality is very subjective. I wonder which is better for humanity: an “immoral” offspring created by the union of a man and a woman or a “moral” offspring created in test tubes and labs?
People who argue this ideology makes them look so selfish in my book. The world is not unicorns and rainbows when it comes to procreating – some couples will count days, measure temperatures, buy fertility sticks, and f their brains out and still have trouble conceiving. They resort to science which is not entirely a walk in the park either as it costs so much (financially and mentally – because let’s face it, resorting to science means admitting that there’s something wrong in you or your partner) then people condemn you and make you feel like you’ve committed a sin just because you wanted to have a family? Spare me.
sorry for the negativity ms A – but i really appreciated your previous posts on egg freezing. i was just a bit annoyed that this comment (D) dampened your purpose given you were so clear on restrictions and information.
Oh dear. Sounds like a real bitch. I wonder how long this bitch wrote it. Anyway, there is no side to take when one sees the bigger picture. And as for those who can see, we know where a bitch is coming from and that is just from a place of conceit and low level of wisdom.
Dear OMB,
I appreciate very much your kindness. I am a bit surprised you posted my comment. Please do not get me wrong. I am not complaining you did. Surely though many more will hate me because of it. But I would like to say that it was never my intention to say anything hurtful more than tell the objective moral truth. Yes, there is such a thing as objective moral truth. Now I am pretty sure some more will hate me, and would want me sentenced to death like Socrates back in ancient Athens, or crucified like that “man” I dare not drag the name here.
This field of concern that made me break my silence is within my expertise that so far has occupied more than 16 years of my life. I am happy discussing similar issues in friendly and educated ways wherever I am. Sadly, very few people here and even abroad can afford to be nice and remain level-headed when discussing dilemmas very close to the heart. I remember vividly a man from Rome who politely said something sensitive at an event and the response he got a few days after was an earth shaking bombing of a church.
Anyway, thank you very much Mrs. Tan Yee for all the laughter, inspiration, and interesting memories of life in the past. You sound like my parents (and I am saying this as a compliment). I wish you all the best of your heart’s desires. And again, my sincere apologies for any inconvenience or hurt I might have caused anyone.
Hi Duchess,
Oh no, there is no need to be apologetic. I sincerely appreciated your comments and the reason why I posted them was because your arguments were valid concerns based on the strict teachings of the Catholic church. I surmised that this field is in your area of expertise. I was telling my husband that you could be a priest, a nun, a theology professor.
All arguments are valid and there’s actually no right and wrong.
Iba-iba tayo ng pananaw. The points raised are thought provoking worthy of a friendly exchange of insights.
Like this one:
I personally do not think that married couples who resort to IVF are immoral. They are in love, they are married, but if after trying so hard they couldn’t have a baby thru natural conception, I don’t find it immoral if they take advantage of advance science to help them have a baby. For the majority of us who conceived by making love with our husbands, that’s great. But there are those who are not as lucky. I personally don’t find it wrong to seek medical intervention if they are having difficulty conceiving.
I will not judge those couples as immoral. I also do not have the right to make that kind of sweeping statement.
I try to be a good person based on what I think a good person should be. By saying #choosetobegood I let you (my readers) interpret it in a positive way based on your conscience and personal beliefs. I don’t measure who I am, what I am based on what others do, think, act. If I will judge myself based on the teachings of Catholicism, I will surely fail.
If raising a responsible and man for others test tube child would earn one eternal damnation in the eyes of religious moralist, I don’t mind bringing my own air conditioner in the after life. We can all be academic and theoretical about “morality” but bottom line is textbook morality is different from real life situations.
Dear OMB,
I appreciate your kind reply.
Am I a priest? A nun? A theology professor? Nope! Not anyone of them. I may not even qualify as a Catholic by the world’s opinion.
If you will examine my comments closely, there was no mention of any religious teaching/dogma specific to Catholicism. I limited my self to pure reasoning that happen to be in a religious document. You see, it doesn’t matter to me that arguments come from religious resources, so long as they stand to reason. I suppose church people are not barred from reasoning as good as some ordinary people do.
Also, nowhere did I say that couples who availed of IVF are immoral. If I may repeat, I said: “egg freezing and sperm banking for future in-vitro-fertilization in order to bring about a human person, not as a fruit of, and outside the dignity of the conjugal act (sexual union of husband and wife) is immoral.” I can only judge the act and say whether it is morally acceptable or morally unacceptable. It is beyond me to judge the persona of those involved, the couple and the assisting medical professionals.
Having a child is not a right. It is common knowledge that a child is a gift. No one has the right to demand gifts. If spouses’s love for each other is true, it must be unconditional. It would not wane and give way to infidelity just because of any party’s inability to bear child.
Like you OMB, if I judge myself based on the teachings of Catholicism, I will surely fail.
But I wouldn’t dare dismiss its reasoning (which are not always easy to understand) as mere religious moralism to make me feel better with my shortcomings.
Perhaps, I would need to borrow some bravado from one of your readers to be able to say in the face of my Creator that “I don’t mind bringing my own air conditioner in the after life.” If she gets there first, I hope she would be kind enough to let me know whether air conditioner is allowed so I can prepare a huge one for myself.
Thank you.
Hi, Point taken. Regards.
With your indulgence, OMB. I would like to respond also to some points you raised.
“All arguments are valid, and there’s actually no right and wrong.”
Let’s have a little experiment on this.
(Disclaimer: I have no personal connection whatsoever to your car business. This is pure fiction.) Say I am one of your employees in Ford Makati (#plugging! #suck up!). I am street smart but with a good heart, or so I think. I use company internet 25 hours a week for my small online business. I also happen to know engines fairly well and sidelines with Ford clients by giving home car repair to anyone willing, outside company book of course. My conscience tells me I am doing good because I work for the extra money I earn. I am not stealing big amount of money or spare parts from the company. My conscience is not bothering me. I am always choosing to be good as a Ford employee.
I think this would upset you. I think you will say there is something wrong. I think you will also expect others to think and feel the same way.
Another case.
Say I am an Asian who went to a trattoria where people are often Caucasian. I have been trying to call the attention of the waiters but no one seems to pay attention to me. After almost half an hour one went my way. She was unenthusiastic and mumbles as if irritated. I inquired about a dish in the menu and she responded in her best English sarcastically asking me if I have the money to pay for it. I politely said of course. She rolled her eyes and took my order. The waitress believes she’s not doing anything wrong because she believes she’s from a superior race. Her conscience approves her attitude. She chooses to be good.
I think you would say the behavior of the waitress is wrong. I also think you will expect that anywhere in the world this waitress’s behavior should be considered wrong.
Last case.
China believes they own the whole of South China Sea. And MORE. They believe they have the right to do whatever they want there. Their conscience is sure that what they are doing is the right thing. They are choosing to be good. One China policy is good!
I think I already know your position regarding this matter.
Hi Duchess,
When I said all arguments are valid— I was referring to the couple’s choice of egg freezing or IVF.
When I said I try to be good according to my conscience— I knew that some people have distorted beliefs on what is right and wrong. However, I don’t have time to point out everything. I would need to write a book to stretch this argument further.
I wish I have more time and energy to expound on a lot of issues and share my thoughts.
I fully agree with you on the examples given. No argument there.
Dear OMB,
I hope I am not abusing your patience and making your birthday unhappy. It is farthest from my intention to put wrinkles on your beautiful face.
I am trying to understand your views and at the same time thinking aloud about them.
Earlier, I was trying to argue that anything that falls under the scope of morality has to contend with a moral standard that cannot be subjective, or relativistic.
In judging the cases I mentioned above as morally unacceptable not only for both of us but for everyone else, we assumed an objective, universal, and unchanging standard of morality.
We use some kind of stable standard of morality when we pass judgments like “some people have distorted beliefs on what is right and wrong.” We have a basis for saying so.
When we say that all the world should condemn the wickedness of Manchester bombing a few days ago, our thoughts are coming from a moral understanding that we expect all others must have because it is universal, unchanging, and right for all. Anyone who deviates from it must be wrong in their thinking.
I am inclined to think that this moral compass applies even to IVF. But pushing this will require very lengthy and patient exchanges. And your blog is not my proper venue to hold it.
Nonetheless, I truly respect your thoughts about IVF.
I am sorry for causing this mess into your online diary. I should have restrained myself and respected the fact that this is your personal diary, albeit public.
My heartfelt apologies, OMB.
#facepalm# I can smell bigotry in guise of logical “bravado”. Nuff said.
Hi, Sophia et al.
(OMB, with your indulgence, for the last time)
It is the least of my intention here to offend anyone. And I’m sorry if I’m sending the wrong message. My attempts at frankness many times fail.
I’d rather gain friends than make enemies.
Life is short and I don’t want myself or anyone grow old grumpy and looking ravaged by stress.
Exchange of seemingly opposed ideas is never without tension. It will test how much we can keep our cool, serenely think through our differences, and foster goodwill.
Regarding the issue of bigotry being associated with my views, I have these thoughts to share:
If upholding objective morality is screaming of bigotry then we are in big trouble. We could all march across the globe and chant “To each his own!” “To each his own!”
International Law would hardly make sense. United Nations would go crazy assuming there are things that can universally hold nations in agreement and responsible for humanity. More tragically, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights would become nothing but shit.
Actually, Human Rights is already being distorted by groups around the world lobbying for social acceptance and legalization of behaviors that threaten the very fabric of society. I won’t go specific here. I can already smell furor somewhere.
Our refusal of hard moral truths is understandable. Strict morality increases the chance of failure (like a difficult entrance exam). And no one wants to be told off. It feels appalling to be on the wrong side. So we try our best to find excuses. We justify our mistakes. This is obvious even among kids.
As we mature and acquire education, and accumulate power with our deep pockets, fame, political clout, etc. we become better in serving our whims, “magically” without being on the wrong side.
If a law/principle is barring us from what we fancy, we find ways to bend it from every angle possible. Or we assail it as conservative, theoretical, unrealistic, etc. and reduce it to bigotry.
We even dare think that if the majority of people isn’t following the rule anymore then it must be obsolete. Unfortunately, right is right even when no one is doing it and wrong is wrong even when everybody is doing it.
I wonder if we are being possessed by King Henry VIII of England. He knows the rules. We know the rules. He defied the rules. He made his own rules to satisfy his wants. He established his own church, and had many wives just to have a male heir.
We also defy the rules and tell ourselves that there are new rules now. With stiff upper lip we declare unto ourselves our own convenient versions.
In the end King Henry VIII’s grand efforts to produce a male heir ultimately ended with a daughter – Queen Elizabeth I. He must be somersaulting in his grave. Peace, man.
It seems we are not learning from history.
Keep writing. I just don’t have the time and energy to write back. Feel free to express your thoughts.
Mil gracias
HAPPY BIRTHDAY ANNIE!! 🙂
May your special day be filled with happiness and full of laughter with people who matter the most.
Take care and may God continue to bless and keep you.
Warm regards,
Bess
Thank you Bess for the thoughtful greetings.
Overthinking and overanalysis are one of the problems today. All I really need to know, I learned in Kindergarten. The topic was just freezing the egg, and to some, this topic is very personal and no amount of ” logical” mumbo jumbo can appease the struggle.
Dear Sophia,
Rather than dismiss the argument as “logical mumbo jumbo,” it makes more sense to call it proper reasoning.
Bringing myself to your “suggested” kindergarten level makes me hear Aesop telling me yet again his fable of the fox and the grapes.
Trying to be level-headed more than emotional is an act of taking seriously the reasoning ability our Creator gifted us with.
I am afraid many people quite forget the parable of the talents nowadays.